There’s actual scientific evidence of it helping with depression and lower rates of mental health problems. If you google it you will find not one but many dozen articles discussing links between religion and improved mental health.
Not everyone who needs can work at an amusement park but anyone can find a religion to suit them even in the US.
Nobody said it can’t help. But you’re making a bigger deal of it than it is. The effect is rather small. If you compare it to benefits from science such as having running water, heating, access to medication, etc. It’s not even on the same level.
Besides, not everyone’s mental health is helped by religion. As the studies shows, it’s only a portion of them. And a lot of people are miserable when religion is forced upon them.
Besides, weather or not religion helps with depression has absolutely nothing to do with science not being able to provide a sense of meaning. You’re simply arguing in bad faith here.
If average mental state is the measurement, then we get to include both the positive and the negative effects of religious mentality. Like Jim Jones, and the neverending stream of “posessions” that stem from complete mental conflicts and disconnections from reality – encouraging people’s mental illnesses.
Churches, hiding and covering up relgious negative experiences, cult worship as offshoots, death cults etc.
We pretend like the salem witch hunts were last eon or something, tell people “there are witches, they exist, satan compelled them to do things and they can make you do things.”
All of a sudden a whole village was being “tempted” by satan, and it was all these witches fault.
Just gotta come up with a story as to how “it’s not your fault” and people will fall over themselves to figure out how they fit in that story.
Science has and will continue to provide a lot of things that improve our lives. I only argue it has failed to deliver a sense of meaning on the scale of religion thus far.
If we believe in evolution then we must also believe that religion is an evolved advantage to our ancestors because it has formed over and over in all great civilizations past. It must have played and likely still plays some important role in the ability for humans to work together, live happily, and to be something bigger than the individual.
I don’t think forced religion is good people should have freedom of choice to include atheism. I also think it should be considered that it has had its place in history and probably still fills an important role.
The backpedaling is hard there. You were literally saying « science hasn’t found a sense of meaning » before. Now it’s « not on the scale » of religion.
People don’t need either science nor religion to find a sense of meaning. It can be through family, friends, sport, traveling, charity, etc. I’d wager religion isn’t that big as a meaning giver that you think it is globally. A big part of why it helps people mentally has likely more to do with the sense of community provided by those groups than it is with the beliefs themselves in the first place. It’s the same as being in any social club. Mental health is mainly about our human interactions, not so much about out individual beliefs and such.
Science has and will continue to provide a lot of things that improve our lives. I only argue it has failed to deliver a sense of meaning on the scale of religion thus far.
That’s like complaining that architecture hasn’t provided a solution for world hunger. That’s not its purpose.
We have lots of religions, some that we’re expected to abandon as adults, some we’re expected to carry forward as adults.
Why? Because they make things easier for you (other) people.
Santa Claus: Won’t give you presents if you don’t go to bed X-mas eve!
(Now get outa my hair kid so I can do a bunch of work to make you happy tomorrow morning.)
The Easter Bunny: This bunny poops colorful, cooked, eggs all over the yard and it’s ok for you to eat them in sandwiches for the next week. Ok so he doesn’t poop them, he only hides them after you cook them. Somehow…
Everyone gets a valentine: There’s someone who loves you everywhere, and we should share our love with everyone.
Life is Fair: Things should be fair, and when you get something you should share it with your sister, or your classmates. Not enough for everyone? None for you!
Fighting is bad: Anyone who gets in a fight gets in trouble, whether you started it or not!
We tell these lies because we want to control the experience and the environment of children, we want to protect them from the lies all those things are meant to keep them from seeing.
Santa Claus Ain’t Real, you’re prolly gonna be broke in an apartment alone eating premade food on a Christmas eve one year… and that’ll be a blessing, cause you could afford something to eat.
The easter bunny was the least adult, adult’s responsibility and one year the eggs stop coming.
Everyone doesn’t get a valentine, and sometimes that kid goes home and gets beat up or hurts themselves – that’s why they’re “too weird” for anyone to be their friend.
Life isn’t fair, people don’t get the same things and some people starve.
Fighting is sometimes not bad at all, and some people make a living doing it. We just want to be able to bet on our fights and make a premium selling the broadcast rights.
As we get older, we’re only supposed to keep the more “adult” religions, like being subservient to our betters, elders, priests, lawmakers etc. They tell you to “be honest (in business.)”. “Don’t murder others (unless I tell you to)”. “Follow the laws of the place you’re in.” and “Don’t cheat on your wife (and get caught).”
We’ve got a few others in there, but those are pretty much the ones you’re “expected” to follow.
Your reward? You get to think about the ending of a fictional book you haven’t actually read a whole lot as though it were real, and you’re one of the characters. It’s amazingly pacifying if you’re trying to keep millions of people from stealing, killing each other, and sleeping around.
I won’t argue that religion hasn’t been usurped throughout history in the name of control. I can mostly only speak with any confidence on Christianity. The Bible regardless how holy and true we are told it is has no doubt been tainted by men throughout history.
There’s still plenty of good in religion despite that. And I don’t think it’s wrong to believe there’s more than what we see. What life looks like after death is a mystery. Science points to your body shuts down. Fact. But we can’t say with any certainty that’s it.
From my experience a healthy church encourages my skepticism. It’ll encourage asking tough questions. It helps me to explore what I believe. The reward when doing that exploration seems to vary from one to another. Myself I became more resilient to the day to day troubles around me that were too big. Me yelling in the void of social media doesn’t change much about issues like global warming or people in need. I can reduce my consumption I can repair instead of replace. I can volunteer my time to help kids who’s parents can’t take care of them. The universe as a whole will be a little better for it
Not all need religion, I accept that, some people have all they need to get by and will cruise from now to the grave. But to some of us it is a major force for happiness and healthiness.
There’s actual scientific evidence of it helping with depression and lower rates of mental health problems. If you google it you will find not one but many dozen articles discussing links between religion and improved mental health.
Not everyone who needs can work at an amusement park but anyone can find a religion to suit them even in the US.
Nobody said it can’t help. But you’re making a bigger deal of it than it is. The effect is rather small. If you compare it to benefits from science such as having running water, heating, access to medication, etc. It’s not even on the same level.
Besides, not everyone’s mental health is helped by religion. As the studies shows, it’s only a portion of them. And a lot of people are miserable when religion is forced upon them.
Besides, weather or not religion helps with depression has absolutely nothing to do with science not being able to provide a sense of meaning. You’re simply arguing in bad faith here.
If average mental state is the measurement, then we get to include both the positive and the negative effects of religious mentality. Like Jim Jones, and the neverending stream of “posessions” that stem from complete mental conflicts and disconnections from reality – encouraging people’s mental illnesses.
Churches, hiding and covering up relgious negative experiences, cult worship as offshoots, death cults etc.
We pretend like the salem witch hunts were last eon or something, tell people “there are witches, they exist, satan compelled them to do things and they can make you do things.”
All of a sudden a whole village was being “tempted” by satan, and it was all these witches fault.
Just gotta come up with a story as to how “it’s not your fault” and people will fall over themselves to figure out how they fit in that story.
Science has and will continue to provide a lot of things that improve our lives. I only argue it has failed to deliver a sense of meaning on the scale of religion thus far.
If we believe in evolution then we must also believe that religion is an evolved advantage to our ancestors because it has formed over and over in all great civilizations past. It must have played and likely still plays some important role in the ability for humans to work together, live happily, and to be something bigger than the individual.
I don’t think forced religion is good people should have freedom of choice to include atheism. I also think it should be considered that it has had its place in history and probably still fills an important role.
The backpedaling is hard there. You were literally saying « science hasn’t found a sense of meaning » before. Now it’s « not on the scale » of religion.
People don’t need either science nor religion to find a sense of meaning. It can be through family, friends, sport, traveling, charity, etc. I’d wager religion isn’t that big as a meaning giver that you think it is globally. A big part of why it helps people mentally has likely more to do with the sense of community provided by those groups than it is with the beliefs themselves in the first place. It’s the same as being in any social club. Mental health is mainly about our human interactions, not so much about out individual beliefs and such.
Science has not found meaning. I cannot point to any scientific discovery that tells why we exist or what our purpose is.
It does provide meaning to some on a small scale who devote themselves to science.
Both statements can be true. Science can provide meaning on a small scale without ever finding it.
That’s like complaining that architecture hasn’t provided a solution for world hunger. That’s not its purpose.
We have lots of religions, some that we’re expected to abandon as adults, some we’re expected to carry forward as adults.
Why? Because they make things easier for you (other) people.
Santa Claus: Won’t give you presents if you don’t go to bed X-mas eve!
(Now get outa my hair kid so I can do a bunch of work to make you happy tomorrow morning.)
The Easter Bunny: This bunny poops colorful, cooked, eggs all over the yard and it’s ok for you to eat them in sandwiches for the next week. Ok so he doesn’t poop them, he only hides them after you cook them. Somehow…
Everyone gets a valentine: There’s someone who loves you everywhere, and we should share our love with everyone.
Life is Fair: Things should be fair, and when you get something you should share it with your sister, or your classmates. Not enough for everyone? None for you!
Fighting is bad: Anyone who gets in a fight gets in trouble, whether you started it or not!
We tell these lies because we want to control the experience and the environment of children, we want to protect them from the lies all those things are meant to keep them from seeing.
Santa Claus Ain’t Real, you’re prolly gonna be broke in an apartment alone eating premade food on a Christmas eve one year… and that’ll be a blessing, cause you could afford something to eat.
The easter bunny was the least adult, adult’s responsibility and one year the eggs stop coming.
Everyone doesn’t get a valentine, and sometimes that kid goes home and gets beat up or hurts themselves – that’s why they’re “too weird” for anyone to be their friend.
Life isn’t fair, people don’t get the same things and some people starve.
Fighting is sometimes not bad at all, and some people make a living doing it. We just want to be able to bet on our fights and make a premium selling the broadcast rights.
As we get older, we’re only supposed to keep the more “adult” religions, like being subservient to our betters, elders, priests, lawmakers etc. They tell you to “be honest (in business.)”. “Don’t murder others (unless I tell you to)”. “Follow the laws of the place you’re in.” and “Don’t cheat on your wife (and get caught).”
We’ve got a few others in there, but those are pretty much the ones you’re “expected” to follow.
Your reward? You get to think about the ending of a fictional book you haven’t actually read a whole lot as though it were real, and you’re one of the characters. It’s amazingly pacifying if you’re trying to keep millions of people from stealing, killing each other, and sleeping around.
I won’t argue that religion hasn’t been usurped throughout history in the name of control. I can mostly only speak with any confidence on Christianity. The Bible regardless how holy and true we are told it is has no doubt been tainted by men throughout history.
There’s still plenty of good in religion despite that. And I don’t think it’s wrong to believe there’s more than what we see. What life looks like after death is a mystery. Science points to your body shuts down. Fact. But we can’t say with any certainty that’s it.
From my experience a healthy church encourages my skepticism. It’ll encourage asking tough questions. It helps me to explore what I believe. The reward when doing that exploration seems to vary from one to another. Myself I became more resilient to the day to day troubles around me that were too big. Me yelling in the void of social media doesn’t change much about issues like global warming or people in need. I can reduce my consumption I can repair instead of replace. I can volunteer my time to help kids who’s parents can’t take care of them. The universe as a whole will be a little better for it
Not all need religion, I accept that, some people have all they need to get by and will cruise from now to the grave. But to some of us it is a major force for happiness and healthiness.