Beehaw mods had issues moderating a flood of new users and low quality posts from here. As they put it, it was more “we don’t have the tools and staff to handle tons of new people” and less “we don’t like SIJW”.
Good explanation.
If I remember correctly they defederated from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works because they were two huge and largely unmoderated instances but did say that they’d like to refederate if solid moderation was put in place.
The SIJW admin and them had talks and agreed that they’d refederate when Lemmy would have decent moderation tools that allowed for that, which hasn’t happened yet.
If what you’re saying is accurate, and these huge communities are largely unmoderated, then we have a pretty outstanding community here on Lemmy. Can you imagine the hate, vitriol, and absolute trash that would be visible if Twitter or Reddit were unmoderated? Yes we have some weird opinions and content, but nothing I’ve seen is overtly dangerous or hateful. Pretty cool, Lemmy. Pretty cool.
A lot of it is self-selecting IMO. We’re big enough to have a good sized community, but we aren’t so big as to become a big target. That will change as Lemmy gets bigger, but it least for now, it’s small enough that the trolls probably don’t get enough attention to bother sticking around.
If you want trash, you can find it on Lemmy, just check the list of most defederated instances. You don’t see it because… well, they’re defederated, which itself is one of the moderation tools available in the Fediverse.
I hope we’ll get to a place where they’ll refederate with us. They have some really interesting communities. I didn’t sign up for an account there because I wasn’t willing to write a 7 page essay and take the blood oath to be admitted. I’m exaggerating… a little.
They want to be the “Elks Lodge” of the fediverse and that’s totally fine. They were pretty transparent about their reasons for defederating with us and their reasons were understandable.
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So what, what’s wrong about expressing “I don’t like this”? How’s that different from expressing “I like this”?
The only “toxicity” is that it seems there are downvote trolls, so almost every post automatically gets a downvote immediately. But you can just ignore if you only have that one or two downvotes. If you can’t handle that, you can’t be surprised if you get called a snowflake.
More applicable to comments than posts… Used as “I don’t like this” stifles conversation. For example, the comment that we’re replying to has been downvoted two to one. It’s a legitimate comment that is worthy of conversation but that won’t happen because downvoting is being used as a “I don’t like this” button. It inevitably creates an echo chamber.
People can and will build botnets to artificially upvote their posts, and downvote opponents. It’s too easily abused.
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I don’t see anything in the comment that I see as a personal attack. The person you replied to used “you,” but I think that was meant as a general “you” (i.e. other people reading this) rather than you specifically.
I generally agree with you, but only for popular subs. In more niche communities, downvotes seem to do a better job of showing which posts are useful and which aren’t, but once you get enough people involved, it seems to devolve into a popularity contest.
I would like to try something a bit different, more akin to what Twitter does. Basically, if a comment gets a ton of comments under it, it should be sorted more highly than one that doesn’t. Maybe that way we can eliminate votes entirely, or keep upvotes and downvotes as a form of agree/disagree but reduce their impact on sorting.
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While in very formal English “one” is the generic pronoun and “you” is addressed to you personally, in casual English “you” is the generic pronoun with the same meaning as formal written French “on”.
So the post above wasn’t a personal attack. It used “you” to mean “one”.
Read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you
If you aren’t going to assume that I have the basic literacy of at least a second grader, then you can see yourself out of this conversation. Please keep the performative snark over on Reddit.
I upvoted this post even though I don’t agree with it. See the downvoted pic of the girl taking a shit to see why I think downvotes are needed at times.
Isn’t that something that mods need to take care of though? Why should that burden be on the community members?
The word “community” goes a long way in answering that question imo.
If we look to the mods take care of everything, we’re a group of content consumers, not a community.
And then we have to deal with the community collectively adopting shitty or evil ideas and enforcing them, shutting down victims or anyone who opposes them. So who checks the community? Who protects the individual?
Sometimes mods are asleep or not locked to their desks. Downvotes help get shit like that (pun fully intended) out of most peoples feeds unless they are browsing by new or are way way way down on the hot scroll list.
It is functionally a “I don’t like this” or “I’m right” button.
Sometimes comments are just wrong, and detract from the community. Downvotes (plus an interface that hides negative voted comments) clean things up without need for formal moderation.
Whatever can be said about downvotes (an automated system for marking one’s disapproval) is probably true of reporting (a human reviewed system for marking one’s extreme disapproval), too.
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All this does is bury comments regardless of quality
But if downvotes (and upvotes) are well correlated with quality, then what’s the problem? Your complaints are about community culture around downvotes, not about the mechanism itself.
I’d love to see a system where votes can be correlated between users so that the ranking algorithm weights like-minded voters and deemphasizes those voters you disagree with, but that would probably create a pretty significant overhead for the service.
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Anyone who cares about downvotes needs to get their head examined. A downvote can mean the person doesn’t agree with your comment, doesn’t like your tone, thinks you are incorrect, thinks the comment doesn’t add to the discussion, hell they could downvote you just because they don’t like your username. None of that matters. All it does is show you if your comment goes against the zeitgeist or not.
The whole point is that people can downvote you for any stupid reason and doesn’t accurately reflect why a post is being rejected by the community. People will do it simply because they want to silence you.
And it causes issues with brigading, botnets, etc. It’s why hexbear and lemmygrad are being defederated – and their members are able to get around it simply by making accounts on other servers and going right back to the brigading. Removing the voting option and giving admins tools to IP ban everyone from an instance upon defederation would go a long way toward fixing the problem. Just putting the hurdle of needing a VPN to regain access alone will deter a lot of idiots.
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That’s my biggest problem with downvotes. I want to know why someone disagrees. That can initiate an interesting conversation.
If I’m factually incorrect, I want to know. Same goes if I expressed myself poorly. A downvote alone doesn’t tell me anything.
I’ve had plenty of times where a comment I made got downvoted like crazy, but a response I made to a comment asking for clarification got a lot of upvotes. It seems people really like to jump on that downvote button, especially if they see something already getting downvotes (i.e. maybe they don’t even read it, they just downvote on reflex).
Votes happen to be really easy to deal with in software, which is probably why they’re so commonly used. However, when it comes to people actually casting votes, they behave a lot differently than software creators expect.
So perhaps we should try something else, like maybe sort by “activity” (how many times the comment was replied to) to sort of counteract that reflex-like urge to use it as an agree/disagree button (if you agree or disagree strongly, you’re likely to comment).
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No one is looking up the votes of every single comment/post they make and keeping up with that. I guarantee you admins of instances are doing literally nothing about it because it’s not a priority. It’s a visual cue to anyone browsing a thread, and it encourages dogpiling. This is well documented, a cursory Google search will show you plenty about this. You’re welcome to disagree, but it’s not like I’m just making this up.
Let me ask you this: why do you think we need downvotes? It’s not about saying they don’t hurt, it’s rather that they need to serve a purpose. What purpose do you think they serve currently? Because it isn’t sorting.
+80/-20 +50/-50 +20/-80 +1/-99 +100/-0
Just from those vote counts, I can be pretty sure the first comment is insightful, the second controversial, the third a troll, and the fourth is definitely spam. The fifth is probably a cat pic, relevant xkcd, meme, or a single-sentence comment that everyone loves, but doesn’t actually add anything important to the topic. If I’m looking for an interesting conversation, I’m focused on the first two, maybe the third. If I’m looking to be pissed off, the third and fourth. And if I’m looking for an easy read, the fifth.
+80, +50, +20, +1, and +100 doesn’t provide the same information. It’s the downvotes that provide the relative context.
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it isn’t sorting by “contribute/doesn’t contribute,” that’s for sure.
It’s both. You’re not wrong with the groupthink thing, but they absolutely do help to combat disinformation and useless comments. I get that you’ve made a decision, but you don’t need to rationalize away the negatives.
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You can’t hide behind the guise of anonymity.
Actually, on Beehaw, you can. If Beehaw has the equivalent of kbin’s “activity” info, I haven’t found it.
Votes still get federated. Even if not exposed via UI anyone running their own (federated) instance can query for who voted on beehaw posts. Only a matter of time before that’s directly exposed as a mod tool.
Nah, we just need to interpret downvotes differently. If we count the votes the right way, it doesn’t really matter if we use downvotes to indicate disagreement.
Reddit used to provide a tally of both upvotes and downvotes, rather than just the sum total of the two. The best top-level comments often had hundreds of both upvotes and downvotes, and vibrant discussions always followed. The quality of Reddit conversation dropped precipitously after they combined up and down votes into a sum total. They made it impossible to find the +500/-498 comments among the +4/-2 comments, calling each of them “+2” with a controversial tag, even though one was highly relevant, and the other was almost completely irrelevant.
A “vote” indicates a strong opinion on the subject, and is the more important metric to consider than the specific composition of the votes. Up or down, any vote is saying “check out this opinion”.
I totally agree here. And I want to take it a step further and instead of sorting by average votes, we should merely be including it as one of many indicators, such as:
- number of direct child comments
- number of total descendant comments
- maybe length of direct child comments - a longer response is more likely to be an interesting rebuttal than a “go away troll” comment
- number of independent users among total descendant comments - if it’s just the same two people going back and forth, that’s just a good, old-fashioned argument that most won’t care to read
And so on. But instead, we seem to just sort by
upvotes - downvotesand call it a day.
Well, at the time, they hoped for eventual refederation, too. Personally, I do as well. We’ll see!
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I didn’t sign up for an account there because I wasn’t willing to write a 7 page essay
Yeah, you’re not welcome. Everyone calling a couple questions an “essay”, can shitpost somewhere else. I’m not exaggerating a bit, if someone can’t be bothered to think through a couple answers ONCE, I don’t trust them to think through the rest of their comments either.
Just popping up real fast to say, it’s a pleasure seeing screenshots of my site while randomly scrolling through my feed. Thanks for using it!
According to your tool no one has defederated Midwest.Social.
Sure looks like it. Is that not the case? I’m not familiar with your instance.
I don’t know, I just figured someone would have. I guess we’re just a flyover instance.
Its one of the best run instances in the federation tbh. And it has a clear purpose of scope which means it doesn’t get as overwhelmed as a general purpose instance
Let beehaw do beehaw things and don’t worry too much about it.
Beehaw defederated everyone lmao
The didn’t defederate from instances that require approval to join, e.g. Midwest.social
They didn’t defederate lemm.ee :o)
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Nah there are some. Very, very few have de-feded from us (most have done so because of buggy federation with lemmy in general), but we’ve de-feded from a handful of instances, just because they were too spammy.
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We had a bit of drama with hexbear.net lol but we’re still fedded with them. For now, anyway, some people don’t want the hassle of letting them in but many are saying wait until after users can block instances and see how things are then.
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https://defed.xyz/check/lemm.ee
Looks like you guys have defederated from four instances. Of these I only know burggit and well… I can’t say I blame you for that.
What is the name of this app?
defed.xyz
Site’s dead?
Edit: Here’s another site that lists blocks…
A classic case of Lemmy hugged to death
Lemmy hugs are more like gentle caresses
Yeah I think it died, it worked a little while ago so hopefully it comes back
Site creator here, pleased to announce that it’s back on! I fucked up and wrote some code that was very badly optimized, so the sizeable userbase chugged through my free monthly bandwith pretty quickly.
Thanks!
I like your avatar, btw. It would be very appreciated at !noncredibledefense@sh.itjust.works.
Thanks, I found it on wojak paradise. I agree, it’s very fitting for NCD. Although I mostly lurk there, it was one of the first communities I joined after moving to Lemmy.
Thanks
My experience on Beehaw so far is that 80% of them are nice and 20% of them are Portlandia characters.
To add to what others have said, the reason beehaw defederated is because they have particular rules (eg no downvotes) that they’re very strict about to ensure that their instance is the safe space they want it to be. It’s not so much that lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works users were acting up against beehaw, just that beehaw expects users to be very well behaved in their instance.
In my experience with beehaw users, they are not well behaved.
Beehaw, behave, beehive; there’s some kinda joke there… honey?
Be how?
What about infosec.pub?
I have an alt there, the admin defederated due to the infamous literal shit spammer.
It might be worth informing him that the issue has been solved
Based on the shit spam in this very thread… Not really
Wait, thats still a thing?
Its down at the very bottom of this thread sitting at -35 votes and still not removed by a mod. I reported it, but I’m also from a different instance and may or may not have burned a few bridges with the management of this instance on my way out
Ah, that’s the risky spoiler section.
I see some things stay the same
You can’t say “we” on a fediverse system, because the post is gonna be seen by everyone everywhere. I’m not on sh.itjust.works, I’m viewing your post on kbin, and it’s also gonna be seen on all the other lemmy servers that are federated with yours.
There appears to be some miscommunication between instances in this thread regarding how posts appear from other communities. I think many arguments are stemming from this, so to clear things up:
It is trivial for users on sh.itjust.works to see what is posted where. It is less obvious for kbin.social users to do the same. Personally, I think it’s a kbin issue for not surfacing enough post information.
That’s pretty awful. Can you at least get the instance if you hover over “main”?
Yes on desktop, no on mobile (as mentioned already).
On mobile, you need to click into post to see. It’s one of my biggest annoyances with kbin.
They posted this on !main.
That’s my point exactly. Their title asks “Does anyone know why we’re defederated from beehaw?” but the majority of people reading this post will be on instances that AREN’T defederated with beehaw. The post needs to say “Does anyone know why sh.itjust.works is defederated from beehaw?”
I mean it doesn’t take much critical thinking to realize defederation is per instance, so mayyybbbeee they’re talking about the instance they’re both part of and posting in.
It takes two seconds to mention the instance when talking about an instance specific topic.
Stop trying to discourage suggestions to improve clarity.
you could also stop browsing other instances main?
Takes 1 second to think about it, even less time
I’m seeing this from just the All page on kbin. That’s where I find other communities I may want to join.
I have not left my instance to see this post.
Yet this is a post from another instance yes?
So maybe this is where that critical thinking comes in, if you set out to view other instances, don’t be afraid if you just happen upon other instances
This is a Kbin problem with not showing the instance name for communities and users. The solution is for kbin to fix it’s UI not for users to add unnecessary information to their post titles.
I suggest you make a post in the Kbin meta magazine if this bothers you instead of complaining to people who did nothing wrong.
I don’t browse other instances’ main, they show up under All together from any federated instance on kbin.
Ok then understand when you view all instances, you might just see another instance
Pretty much everyone is seeing it just by looking their instance’s homepage, they’re not browsing on sh.itjust.works’s page. That’s how federation works.
So, in addition to posting in a community specific page I should also clarify for idiots who don’t know how the technology they’re using or who can’t take a moment and think for themselves about what’s flashing on their screens?
You mean if youre viewing all? Then yeah you might get all posts (no friggin way). This is where that critical thinking comes in
You’re suggesting that every single post to this community mentions the instance name?
How did you get ‘every post ever’ from ‘instance specific topic’?
This is the community for discussing sh.itjust.works. that’s what this whole ass community is
Because this community is the “Home of the sh.itjust.works instance”.
Every post in this community is an instance specific topic. That’s the point of the community.
They posted on the community for discussing the server they’re on. There’s some onus on you to look at what communities someone is posting to
I posted it in the community for sh.itjust.works
The majority of people are reading this either from Lemmy’s UI, or from some app for Lemmy, both of which clearly show which community+instance this was posted to.
Ask kbin devs to fix their UI and do the same.
It’s further exacerbated if you’re using apps that don’t immediately show the instance a post is from
Even so, the image that this post is discussing specifically mentions the sh.itjust.works instance. So even if your app sucks, the linked post gives you all the context you need to understand that this is specifically discussing the sh.itjust.works instance.
That’s a problem with the app not with the OP’s post.
Stop using garbage ass kbin and you’ll be able to see what instance the people are using. No one should have to cater to kbin users.
This is more of a problem about English making no distinction between “we” (us including you) and “we” (us excluding you)
That’s related, but it should still be pretty clear from context.
If I say, “the current President doesn’t represent us,” I’m obviously not talking about the whole world, or even the whole country, but the specific subgroup that I’m a part of (i.e. maybe my demographic, political party, etc). If I say, “we need to take responsibility for the state of the planet,” I’m talking about everyone in the whole world, not just me and my specific demographic or political party.
It would be a lot clearer if we had better words in English, but it is usually quite clear from context. In this case, this is posted to the sh.itjust.works’ “main” community, and the post specifically mentions sh.itjust.works in the image that’s linked. It’s pretty clear it’s talking specifically about the sh.itjust.works instance.
The same mistake could be made, since OP assumed the audience is the SIJW instance, thus using inclusive we, when actually its the whole federation, the exclusive we could have been used.
Yup. Im reading this on kbin too, and my initial reaction was “Beehaw is defederated from kbin? When did that happen?!?”
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Who pooped in your éclair?
Yeah, really wish people would mention their instance, it’s more of a guessing game trying to work out what people they’re actually referring to
The short version is because the mods there are very special (in abad way) and like to gatekeep their echochamber as much as possible.
The long one is because they have a vision where their platform is more safe to its users which should be more likeminded individuals and would like to keep it as true and safe as possible acording to their vision, which im not sure what it really is, from what i heard is that they are very left leaning but in an extreme way and dont like discidents, so anyone thats not as likeminded as them is just straight up not welcome then. They probably call disicidents harasers and just ban them. So an echochamber.
Now officially what they said is that everybody but them sucks at moderating and wont refederate untill they dont suck anymore. They say thats because everyone doesnt have sophisticated tools for moderating but i think they just whant everyone to enforce their ideals everywhere else, and if thats the case i believe we are better of without them.
👆 Comments like this, is why.
Well i rather be called a wanker and get downvoted to oblivion for commenting unpopular comments than to get straight up banned for it. Thats the type of shit that made me leave reddit instead of keep fighting overly sensitive jannies and nearsighted leadership. It just gets old really fast, and its no way to live.
Your comments so far are uninformed drivel and speculation, which only gets made worse by the fact that the rules of the instance are public for anyone to see. In practice, the mods have too much leniency in many cases, and unlike other communities, allow for actually fixing your behavior (or drunken comments), instead of pulling Reddit shit like banning you for appealing a random suspension.
Well thats why im being speculative about it, since i have not been to behaw myself nor are planning to since from what i read they are heavy on shit i dont like, and bessides because i dont care enough to “better inform myself” on some random niche fediverse instance, im just spewing out what i heard, and i dont like what i heard abbout it and its that they do much censorship, thats why i recomend people to not go there since i would like that people dont have to deal with censorship.
and bessides because i dont care enough to “better inform myself” on some random niche fediverse instance, im just spewing out what i heard
Why not just say nothing then?
Go back to beehaw if you whant to censor people you dont agree with kid.
lmao you’re the one who seems upset to have to read an opposing opinion
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Citation needed
Attacks AOC, Obama, and Biden while praising Ramaswamy and spewing whataboutisims every time Trump is mentioned. Complains bitterly that Bill Nye is political because he said climate change. Claims everyone else is a fake liberal. Yeah this is just a MAGAT pretending to be liberal again
Bill Nye is political
To be fair, he actually is quite political. That doesn’t make him wrong, it just means at least recently he has been using more political rhetoric when discussing science.
I agree with the rest of what you said though.
Also claims rich men north of Richmond, a song FILLED with conservative talking points is a leftwing perspective
Obama deported twice as many as trump and dropped more bombs than bush. Your brainwashing is showing.
Don’t act like that doesn’t make you happy
No I’m not happy theyre brainwashed that’s the point
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