Unironically me as an IT professional who uses Windows. It just works. I have to fuck around with all that shit all day, I don’t want to go home and do it too.
As a windows user in corporate IT. It just doesn’t work. I spend most of my time hacking my way through useless unix pseudo toys, wsl2, cygwin, mingw… Each one for every tool because… Reasons. And because wsl2 is just painful. So we spend time creating fake unix virtual machines via docker on kubernetes using vs code remotely on expensive linux clusters… Frustrating.
Go home and turn on a linux laptop just to see a real functional terminal. Deep breath, zen, cathartic.
Windows makes my otherwise fine daily work miserable.
I hate enterprise IT. Built for sending around emails and working with excel sheets.
I am seriously thinking about starting an AI start up just to avoid risking another windows laptop switching job (they always promise cool stuff, at the end they always deliver overpriced windows garbage, my 8 years old laptop is more functional than your 3k notebook)
Happy for you. I am literally the one who fixes the issues for the whole department, that chooses technologies and design systems and solutions and lead integrations. I have no issues with pretty complex technologies, including cuda on kubernetes, that is pretty tricky.
But I know c# developers are also happy with just windows and visual studio.
As suggestion, try the real thing, you’d likely never want to go back
I’m Dev ops and a developer, I use cuda daily and kubernetes is my personal stack of choice. I have to use the real thing constantly for servers etc. It works ok, would much rather a Linux server than a windows one. But servers is where it ends.
My last use of Linux for personal machine was Ubuntu on an Alienware laptop. It didn’t have drivers for most of it. Got 90% of it working (took a good 6 hours) then one day I went to stick my headphones in and the jack wasn’t working (a Linux issue) I went back to windows and never looked back.
People scream about Linux being so much better but the hard truth is it just isn’t unless you are also willing to reinvent several wheels that are already handled for you in other operating systems. But if you like that level of fine control over every element and are ok with your UI lacking the finishes of commercial ones and custom drivers not being as effective with hardware management as the proprietary ones then Linux is the distro of choice. There seems to be a very thin line between people bragging about Linux to make it appear they are smarter than they are and actual Linux users, like it’s some sort of tech badge to shout that you love Linux that gives you some sort of superiority but after 25+ years in the industry I can honestly say all the actual Linux users I’ve met are also all very much on the spectrum and don’t have people skills. It would be fair to say what they are looking for in an OS isn’t the same as everybody else.
We have linux on our clusters. It is the de facto standard for scientific computing, and it is the best choice for kubernetes. So we have both linux as host OS and only linux containers on our servers.
Everyone uses Linux nowadays. Even Microsoft makes more money on Linux than windows on azure. No one wouldn’t even think about using windows for the job I do, not even Microsoft.
That’s why they created wsl2, to provide unix for enterprise IT. The real struggle is that wsl2 is suboptimal. A real Linux desktop, or even a mac would be much better. Problem is that enterprise IT doesn’t want to manage them, because accenture said so… I guess. Bigger the enterprise, less willing to support unix laptops they are.
If your diagnoses of professional unix users in the spectrum was right, you’d have to put most of scientific computing, hpc, ML and AI commuties in the spectrum.
It is a bit stretched, I’d say.
I don’t claim to be smarter than anyone, I started the thread pointing out that “windows just works” (as OP claimed) is not always true. For my work, it doesn’t work and it is painful
I do have access to multiple terminals. Terminals are just another interface alternative to GUIs. There is no way I could work without. I simply have access to the plethora of crappy terminals you can find for windows, and wls2. And clearly I have access to the remote linux VMs and can attach to containers running on the remote clusters, and deploy there hardened images I build, that are secured full OSes just lacking the kernel
Of they are but your access will be restricted (no access to files or executables). That can easily make working with a terminal that much more exhausting although implemented for good reason.
While I can definitely understand and respect that, ever since I had an experience where I had to dual-boot Windows for work reasons and the printer that just worked without issue in Linux required a three-digit MB download of a bloated driver-suite with borderline spyware included in Windows, I don’t trust Windows to “just work” any more.
Not saying it’s on-par with each other, there’s probably still more fidgeting with Linux (haven’t used Windows in ages, genuinely have no perspective any more), but that experience taught me that Linux isn’t the short straw any more in every situation, like it definitely used to be a few years ago.
(Also, was amused when during a LAN party when we wanted to play classic Warcraft III a while back, mine ran in wine without issue, but for a friend we had to deep-dive into the registry because of some obscure problem that prevented it from starting at all in native Windows).
There are generic printer drivers that work fine on windows too. You generally don’t need to get the manufacturers bloated driver/utility/update/subscription package. Also that’s not really the OS’ fault, it’s the shitty printer vendors.
First point, i readily agree. I could not be bothered to search for any longer back then, but there most likely was a better alternative than going with the official driver suite.
Second point though - if the OS doesn’t come with drivers that allow for a plug and play experience out of the box (like my Linux install, think it was Manjaro back then, did), I think that can be held against it. Shitty vendors harm the Linux experience all the time, and it is very often - legitimately as it can severely impact the user exerience - held against it.
Every one that bitches about Linux and plug-and-play always says it’s Linux’ fault for not working.
Now you say it’s the vendors fault for not supporting Windows.
Make it make sense, other than ‘I will defend my preferred option without logic’.
I remember building a PC with motherboard not supported by Windows, with drivers on a CD. Obviously I didn’t have a CD drive, since why would I. Ubuntu supported it out of the box. Had way more success with printers on Linux than Windows. And god bless AMD.
Except if somebody uses distro like arch just because memes, and then complain on the internet that they have to download some stuff to connect to wifi or projector in this case
Except when I start a 10h build before going home only to find out in the morning that windows update restarted my computer in the middle of the night. Or when I can’t edit a folder because a file “is being used”, then I close absolutely every running program and it’s still somehow “being used”. Or when I can’t turn off the PC because something is running in the background, even though I closed everything one by one. Or when my PC starts screaming because a VSCode subprocess is using all my resources, I kill it in task manager, and it somehow respawns as a process of its own. I can’t end it, and closing VSCode doesn’t do anything. My laptop became so hot I couldn’t hold it.
I mean Linux causes problems too, ofc. I once spent like 2h trying to set up a keyboard to input Chinese characters on Fedora. But in my experience, Linux caused me less frustration by far. Or when a problem arises, I can fix it quickly.
This is not to bash on you for using windows, just thought I’d throw in that “just works” isn’t universal.
As someone who had to switch to windows at work, why the fuck do I have to set the path variable so often for every program. choco does it sometimes but most often something doesn’t work ootb and I have to set this path variable
As an IT professional i got rid of anything Microsoft related at home years ago just to not get bothered, can’t imagine anything i’m missing and shit just works.
So there’s no way e-v-e-r “it just works”, especially docker, you have the feeling because you kind of used to it and might never seen a fast, responsive and reliable system (on the long run). I had the same kind of setup on several jobs and nope, nope-nope, noooope.
But hey, kudos if you succeed to do your job in such condition without hurting yourself, good sign of resilience. :)
I call it BS, my friend.
Though, of course you could do those activities, that’s not the argument. the argument is telling that you can’t do that with ease, first try, in the best way (performance, stability).
Dude, just switching audio input/sources is a mess on Windows, configuring an IP is a fucking joke.
I don’t take in account gamer’s opinion cause they tend to devalue their difficulties as soon as their 28gb cracked games has started or they logged-in 30min later (opening, downloading, upgrading) on their OriginSteamXboxLive platform.
the argument is telling that you can’t do that with ease, first try, in the best way (performance, stability).
Like running games on Linux or getting your gpu supported properly? Or wifi?
Or just having a running system after dist upgrades?
Dude, just switching audio input/sources is a mess on Windows, configuring an IP is a fucking joke
Wtf are you talking about? Have you ever used windows?
I can do both of that in less than 20 seconds.
Go to your audio manager, switch source.
Go to your network interface, configure IP.
I don’t take in account gamer’s opinion cause they tend to devalue their difficulties as soon as their 28gb cracked games has started or they logged-in 30min later (opening, downloading, upgrading) on their OriginSteamXboxLive platform.
I am an IT professional working with both and I couldn’t care less if you value my opinion. I highly doubt you are doing anything with your system that I haven’t done.
Fellow IT pro (don’t feel like it though) who also uses Windows here. It’s not the perfect OS, but I’m kinda getting tired lately of the amount of Windows bad over exaggeration going on (seriously I’m seeing people complain about windows not having features that it actually does have or running into errors that are entirely user related in cause). If I want to sit down and have a 90% chance of not having to mess with anything then Windows is my choice.
In the chance it does mess up it’s usually something I can find and fix easily even for obscure issues just cause the amount of exposure to errors and documentation for Windows is insane… That and usually a reboot will fix it 9/10 times.
While I do dual boot and use linux from time to time for enthusiast stuff, and while Linux is now fairly comparable to Windows in “it just works” stuff. A lot of programs still don’t have full or even well kept Linux versions. And after getting off of work where I deal with fixing a ton of complicated Linux errors, a lot of times with little documentation or similar error documentation. I just want something that will be reliable, fairly predictable, and also “just work”.
Honestly. I’m basically the same I just use a fedora because it works. I tried arch and its cool but I’m too lazy to keep up with stuff at home since I already have to do so much at works. Linux is as stable as you want and you actually can do whatever you want unlike linux
Am same job. I just hop around from platform to platform when I get bored at home. All the shit I care about is on an unfair. My PC at home is just a toy I play around with to suit my mood.
I have the exact opposite experience. Windows at work just doesn’t work. I start every day by clicking away a few error messages (like the KDC certificate or a PIN that doesn’t work without any more details) when logging in, then checking for updates and installing them while I get a drink so windows won’t force a restart on me during the day. Then I fix all the shared drives we use because they just don’t mount properly without help from a batch script. If I didn’t reboot the PC for updates already, I restart outlook and teams because otherwise they will eventually lose connection and stop working without any error messages.
That continues through the rest of the day.
When I get home, I can confidently run a pacman -Syu (unless there are nvidia updates) and everything just works. I can launch games and (after a minute or two because proton and excluding EA of course) they just work. Usually better than on windows too.
Oh, I actually meant Windows at home. Windows at work is definitely problematic.
But at home, for my own stuff, Windows just works, with zero setup or maintenance hassle. I used to do the whole Linux thing, had set up dual boot (again for games that only work on Windows ) it was not only not fun, what was I getting out of it? I found myself not even booting to Linux because it literally was not providing me with anything I needed.
Unironically me as an IT professional who uses Windows. It just works. I have to fuck around with all that shit all day, I don’t want to go home and do it too.
As a windows user in corporate IT. It just doesn’t work. I spend most of my time hacking my way through useless unix pseudo toys, wsl2, cygwin, mingw… Each one for every tool because… Reasons. And because wsl2 is just painful. So we spend time creating fake unix virtual machines via docker on kubernetes using vs code remotely on expensive linux clusters… Frustrating.
Go home and turn on a linux laptop just to see a real functional terminal. Deep breath, zen, cathartic.
Windows makes my otherwise fine daily work miserable.
I hate enterprise IT. Built for sending around emails and working with excel sheets.
I am seriously thinking about starting an AI start up just to avoid risking another windows laptop switching job (they always promise cool stuff, at the end they always deliver overpriced windows garbage, my 8 years old laptop is more functional than your 3k notebook)
Honestly sounds like you’re just not very good at your job. As a windows wsl2 user I don’t have any of these problems. Everything just works for me.
Happy for you. I am literally the one who fixes the issues for the whole department, that chooses technologies and design systems and solutions and lead integrations. I have no issues with pretty complex technologies, including cuda on kubernetes, that is pretty tricky.
But I know c# developers are also happy with just windows and visual studio.
As suggestion, try the real thing, you’d likely never want to go back
I’m Dev ops and a developer, I use cuda daily and kubernetes is my personal stack of choice. I have to use the real thing constantly for servers etc. It works ok, would much rather a Linux server than a windows one. But servers is where it ends.
My last use of Linux for personal machine was Ubuntu on an Alienware laptop. It didn’t have drivers for most of it. Got 90% of it working (took a good 6 hours) then one day I went to stick my headphones in and the jack wasn’t working (a Linux issue) I went back to windows and never looked back.
People scream about Linux being so much better but the hard truth is it just isn’t unless you are also willing to reinvent several wheels that are already handled for you in other operating systems. But if you like that level of fine control over every element and are ok with your UI lacking the finishes of commercial ones and custom drivers not being as effective with hardware management as the proprietary ones then Linux is the distro of choice. There seems to be a very thin line between people bragging about Linux to make it appear they are smarter than they are and actual Linux users, like it’s some sort of tech badge to shout that you love Linux that gives you some sort of superiority but after 25+ years in the industry I can honestly say all the actual Linux users I’ve met are also all very much on the spectrum and don’t have people skills. It would be fair to say what they are looking for in an OS isn’t the same as everybody else.
We have linux on our clusters. It is the de facto standard for scientific computing, and it is the best choice for kubernetes. So we have both linux as host OS and only linux containers on our servers.
Everyone uses Linux nowadays. Even Microsoft makes more money on Linux than windows on azure. No one wouldn’t even think about using windows for the job I do, not even Microsoft.
That’s why they created wsl2, to provide unix for enterprise IT. The real struggle is that wsl2 is suboptimal. A real Linux desktop, or even a mac would be much better. Problem is that enterprise IT doesn’t want to manage them, because accenture said so… I guess. Bigger the enterprise, less willing to support unix laptops they are.
If your diagnoses of professional unix users in the spectrum was right, you’d have to put most of scientific computing, hpc, ML and AI commuties in the spectrum.
It is a bit stretched, I’d say.
I don’t claim to be smarter than anyone, I started the thread pointing out that “windows just works” (as OP claimed) is not always true. For my work, it doesn’t work and it is painful
True, before i started to work with Windows i already disliked Microsoft, but what they are able to break constantly is astonishing.
There is no way security would give you a full terminal with all kinds of stuff to break or leak.
I do have access to multiple terminals. Terminals are just another interface alternative to GUIs. There is no way I could work without. I simply have access to the plethora of crappy terminals you can find for windows, and wls2. And clearly I have access to the remote linux VMs and can attach to containers running on the remote clusters, and deploy there hardened images I build, that are secured full OSes just lacking the kernel
Of they are but your access will be restricted (no access to files or executables). That can easily make working with a terminal that much more exhausting although implemented for good reason.
While I can definitely understand and respect that, ever since I had an experience where I had to dual-boot Windows for work reasons and the printer that just worked without issue in Linux required a three-digit MB download of a bloated driver-suite with borderline spyware included in Windows, I don’t trust Windows to “just work” any more.
Not saying it’s on-par with each other, there’s probably still more fidgeting with Linux (haven’t used Windows in ages, genuinely have no perspective any more), but that experience taught me that Linux isn’t the short straw any more in every situation, like it definitely used to be a few years ago.
(Also, was amused when during a LAN party when we wanted to play classic Warcraft III a while back, mine ran in wine without issue, but for a friend we had to deep-dive into the registry because of some obscure problem that prevented it from starting at all in native Windows).
There are generic printer drivers that work fine on windows too. You generally don’t need to get the manufacturers bloated driver/utility/update/subscription package. Also that’s not really the OS’ fault, it’s the shitty printer vendors.
First point, i readily agree. I could not be bothered to search for any longer back then, but there most likely was a better alternative than going with the official driver suite.
Second point though - if the OS doesn’t come with drivers that allow for a plug and play experience out of the box (like my Linux install, think it was Manjaro back then, did), I think that can be held against it. Shitty vendors harm the Linux experience all the time, and it is very often - legitimately as it can severely impact the user exerience - held against it.
Every one that bitches about Linux and plug-and-play always says it’s Linux’ fault for not working.
Now you say it’s the vendors fault for not supporting Windows.
Make it make sense, other than ‘I will defend my preferred option without logic’.
I remember building a PC with motherboard not supported by Windows, with drivers on a CD. Obviously I didn’t have a CD drive, since why would I. Ubuntu supported it out of the box. Had way more success with printers on Linux than Windows. And god bless AMD.
When have I bitched about Linux? I’ve had a great experience with Mint, Debian, and Ubuntu. I use Linux, Windows and MacOS on a regular basis.
Some people just like to complain. Can’t fix that.
Same as GNU/Linux
Except if somebody uses distro like arch just because memes, and then complain on the internet that they have to download some stuff to connect to wifi or projector in this case
Except when I start a 10h build before going home only to find out in the morning that windows update restarted my computer in the middle of the night. Or when I can’t edit a folder because a file “is being used”, then I close absolutely every running program and it’s still somehow “being used”. Or when I can’t turn off the PC because something is running in the background, even though I closed everything one by one. Or when my PC starts screaming because a VSCode subprocess is using all my resources, I kill it in task manager, and it somehow respawns as a process of its own. I can’t end it, and closing VSCode doesn’t do anything. My laptop became so hot I couldn’t hold it.
I mean Linux causes problems too, ofc. I once spent like 2h trying to set up a keyboard to input Chinese characters on Fedora. But in my experience, Linux caused me less frustration by far. Or when a problem arises, I can fix it quickly.
This is not to bash on you for using windows, just thought I’d throw in that “just works” isn’t universal.
As someone who had to switch to windows at work, why the fuck do I have to set the path variable so often for every program. choco does it sometimes but most often something doesn’t work ootb and I have to set this path variable
This is one of the main reasons that I want to bash my head against the wall when setting up new stuff on Windows
Tech worker vs tech enthusiast
As an IT professional i got rid of anything Microsoft related at home years ago just to not get bothered, can’t imagine anything i’m missing and shit just works.
Same. I swear, people running Windows don’t really know what “just works” means.
I have Windows on my work and home machines for years. Never needed a reinstallation or recovery.
You have to explain to me what you do then, please. :) I swear, i don’t do anything fancy and this is not the only windows I am exposed to.
I’m a system analyst, so I use a couple of IDE, Docker, Jypiter Notebook, Postman, MS Office
So there’s no way e-v-e-r “it just works”, especially docker, you have the feeling because you kind of used to it and might never seen a fast, responsive and reliable system (on the long run). I had the same kind of setup on several jobs and nope, nope-nope, noooope.
But hey, kudos if you succeed to do your job in such condition without hurting yourself, good sign of resilience. :)
I don’t know what are you talking about. There was no problems or struggles with Docker or Windows for me. I installed it and run it. It just works.
I didn’t have to do a reinstall since XP and been doing everyday stuff like gaming, emails, browsing but also programming/scripting.
On the contrary none of my Linux machines survived, usually either because of hardware incompatibility or dist upgrades that broke shit
I call it BS, my friend. Though, of course you could do those activities, that’s not the argument. the argument is telling that you can’t do that with ease, first try, in the best way (performance, stability). Dude, just switching audio input/sources is a mess on Windows, configuring an IP is a fucking joke.
I don’t take in account gamer’s opinion cause they tend to devalue their difficulties as soon as their 28gb cracked games has started or they logged-in 30min later (opening, downloading, upgrading) on their OriginSteamXboxLive platform.
Like running games on Linux or getting your gpu supported properly? Or wifi?
Or just having a running system after dist upgrades?
Wtf are you talking about? Have you ever used windows?
I can do both of that in less than 20 seconds.
Go to your audio manager, switch source.
Go to your network interface, configure IP.
I am an IT professional working with both and I couldn’t care less if you value my opinion. I highly doubt you are doing anything with your system that I haven’t done.
Fellow IT pro (don’t feel like it though) who also uses Windows here. It’s not the perfect OS, but I’m kinda getting tired lately of the amount of Windows bad over exaggeration going on (seriously I’m seeing people complain about windows not having features that it actually does have or running into errors that are entirely user related in cause). If I want to sit down and have a 90% chance of not having to mess with anything then Windows is my choice.
In the chance it does mess up it’s usually something I can find and fix easily even for obscure issues just cause the amount of exposure to errors and documentation for Windows is insane… That and usually a reboot will fix it 9/10 times.
While I do dual boot and use linux from time to time for enthusiast stuff, and while Linux is now fairly comparable to Windows in “it just works” stuff. A lot of programs still don’t have full or even well kept Linux versions. And after getting off of work where I deal with fixing a ton of complicated Linux errors, a lot of times with little documentation or similar error documentation. I just want something that will be reliable, fairly predictable, and also “just work”.
Honestly. I’m basically the same I just use a fedora because it works. I tried arch and its cool but I’m too lazy to keep up with stuff at home since I already have to do so much at works. Linux is as stable as you want and you actually can do whatever you want unlike linux
Am same job. I just hop around from platform to platform when I get bored at home. All the shit I care about is on an unfair. My PC at home is just a toy I play around with to suit my mood.
I have the exact opposite experience. Windows at work just doesn’t work. I start every day by clicking away a few error messages (like the KDC certificate or a PIN that doesn’t work without any more details) when logging in, then checking for updates and installing them while I get a drink so windows won’t force a restart on me during the day. Then I fix all the shared drives we use because they just don’t mount properly without help from a batch script. If I didn’t reboot the PC for updates already, I restart outlook and teams because otherwise they will eventually lose connection and stop working without any error messages.
That continues through the rest of the day.
When I get home, I can confidently run a pacman -Syu (unless there are nvidia updates) and everything just works. I can launch games and (after a minute or two because proton and excluding EA of course) they just work. Usually better than on windows too.
Oh, I actually meant Windows at home. Windows at work is definitely problematic.
But at home, for my own stuff, Windows just works, with zero setup or maintenance hassle. I used to do the whole Linux thing, had set up dual boot (again for games that only work on Windows ) it was not only not fun, what was I getting out of it? I found myself not even booting to Linux because it literally was not providing me with anything I needed.