The six-year-old student who shot his teacher in the US earlier this year, boasted about the incident saying “I shot [her] dead”, unsealed court documents show.
While being restrained after the shooting at a Virginia school, the boy is said to have admitted “I did it”, adding “I got my mom’s gun last night”.
His teacher, Abigail “Abby” Zwerner - who survived - filed a $40m (£31.4m) lawsuit earlier this year.
The boy has not been charged.
The boy’s mother, however, Deja Taylor, has been charged with felony child neglect and misdemeanour recklessly leaving a loaded firearm as to endanger a child.
In Ms Zwerner’s lawsuit, filed in April, she accuses school officials of gross negligence for ignoring warning signs and argues the defendants knew the child "had a history of random violence
The documents also mention another incident with the same student while he was in kindergarten. A retired teacher told police he started “choking her to the point she could not breathe”.
It’s amazing to me how focused these comments are on the child being “evil” and not the environment that created this situation. A child isn’t born believing that shooting their teacher is a viable solution to their problems. At 6 years old you’re barely functional. For this to happen they had to exist in a profoundly fucked up environment with no moral compass and access to a lot of information, presented without good context, far above their age. Everyone responsible for raising this kid should be held responsible.
This kid needs years of therapy and support and a loving caregiver. Before the age of 10 children are incredibly impressionable and still undergoing very basic core development, until the age of 25 people are still in development to some level. There are many years ahead where this child can be saved from themselves. There is no reason to call a 6 year old irredeemable.
It’s possible he really has no remorse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder
I’d like someone more knowledgeable to confirm this, but I remember that kids cannot be diagnosed certain PDs, so I’m not sure that this can really apply to a child. Also, PDs more often than not derive from childhood problems.
This is somewhat true. I’m fairly knowledgeable about this topic (US) im pretty sure Children still cannot be officially diagnosed with a severe personality disorder until usually 14-18 depending on the state and the personality disorder. Usually it’s higher age brackets for more “severe” disorders like aspd. Yet weirdly low for add, adhd and odd. Depends mainly on state.
Many problematic children will be diagnosed with both odd and adhd /add at a young age and the moment they “age out” of youth services they’ll be immediately diagnosed with aspd or a whole bouquet of other DSM’s. This is one of my bigger pet peeves as parents are often left out of the loop pourpousefully simply as there is no “solution” to a child with such issues other than buttloads of money and time.
To add, as someone who has worked with children and children with behavioral issues. In multiple countries and cultures:
We usually know with like 80% certainty by the time the child is I’d say six or seven, roughly what is wrong with any given child, and can give pretty spot on diagnosis between ourselves. We are ofc not allowed to speak with parents regarding most of these issues, that’s a 5 minute talk between a child’s psychologist and its parents every six months. And Timmy just can’t sitt still for more than 20 minutes! It’s a disaster! But other than thst he’s a little angel!
Also, imagine telling a Karen her precious angel tried stabbed another kid with scissors?
Yeah I fucking stabbed her, I fucking stabbed the lil bitch in the face cause I fucking hate her fucking bitch"
And then two weeks later you almost loose your job, cause surprise. Timmy just stabbed the lil bitch in the FACE with Scissors. I know from the grapevine Timmy is now in a locked mental health juvie. Like. How do I explain. We all knew? All of us who ever worked with him told each other he was going to spend the rest of his life getting bailed out of jail by mommy and daddy, or dead, or 15-life. We knew he was dangerous. Deranged even. Why dosent anyone listen? Parents didn’t care, administration didn’t care. Hell the only people who seemed to actually care were us and the girls parents. (big and biggest Bitch)
It’s this shit + the metal detectors (+admin) that makes people like me charge 100$/h tutoring autistic kids now instead of working 50% and volunteering 50% at local school districts.
I am not a teacher. Just a giant guy who has always been good with kids. (I never stopped being one)
I dont think im intelligent enough to get into the nature vs nurture argument. It’s a doozy. My opinion is “why not both” I’ve seen both sides proven imo, a good nurture just gives you alot more tools to use.
Correct. ASPD isn’t diagnosed until the child is 18. They usually will diagnose them with “conduct disorder” as a minor instead.
After the kindergarten incident the child should’ve been given a psychiatric evaluation. It is possible he’s got a “screw loose” but in the vast majority of cases like this you’ll find there’s violence in the home. The foster system sucks ass, but in this case rolling the dice probably would’ve led to a better outcome than leaving him in that home.
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Not sure I fully agree, humans are social animals and learn what behaviors are beneficial for both themselves and the group. You can point to specific things that run counter to this, but that doesn’t change what humans are. But it is a distinction without a difference. Either way it’s the environment the child is in that is eventuating a negative outcome.
None of that conflicts with the comment you replied to. You’re both correct.
Are you outing yourself?
The earliest years are where the individual gains their fundamental personality. This kid is toast, no matter what kind of treatment or assistance they receive. They weren’t born this way, but they’re now done for.
There are exceptions to every rule. Some kids are born evil, although you’re probably right that the parents suck too
True, but we have no idea if this child is a born psychopath or not. We do know they did something extremely depraved and were raised very poorly.
I assure you, even though it is likely that the environment failed them, some kids are just plain evil and will require lifelong support. Parents arent always to blame.
Yeah, but parents who leave loaded guns around where their six-year-olds can have access to them are probably to blame.
Why do you think that some kids are just plain evil? I’m reading several comments stating this thing and it just baffles me, to say the least.
Because my sibling was a psycho, and I doubt there is anything more my parents could have done. You have to get to know one (child or not) to understand that this exists not just in movies.
Sorry about your experience, I can imagine how terrifying this must be. I guess that there are many reasons why I (like others) am very skeptical about it being just nature, especially considering science doesn’t have a definitive answer to this (as far as I know). I know that genetics play a role in predicting future diagnoses. It’s just that having full blown personality disorders from childhood (especially when personality is something that you develop during childhood) sounds weird, and many people are labeled “bad” when it’s really a dark childhood that is running the scene.
Absolutely, I never met anyone else like that in my life. I assumed most people with bad behaviours had bad childhood, but I can’t deny knowing at least one person with a troubling disorder.
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People say things like this, then years later find out their siblings/demon kids in their lives were abused (sexually or no) by parents friends/distant relatives etc.
I don’t think people become psychopaths or develop extreme BPD out of nowhere. Like never.
You don’t believe in genetic mental illness? That one can be born with a sickness in the brain?
You don’t have to believe everyone on the internet, I can only offer you my slice of experience. Nothing wrong happened to my sibling. It was a child who actively tried to hurt people and kill stuff barely after learning to walk. It scared everyone for a while but medication and therapy helped turn they into a stable and functional adult. My sibling is also pretty open about it, at least with me.
I do believe a lot of our issues are genetic. But we also know different people with identical genetical “problems” will and won’t develop mental illnesses based on their environments and traumatic events in their lives. Epigenetics and all. Like schizophrenia. It was first purely genetic, now we’re pretty sure it’s also environment and experience led.
Because people aren’t born as a blank slate, although people seem to like that idea. Genetics play a huge role in personality and character. Some people are born without remorse. They need help and therapy like every other type of disability. But people are just too hung up on the idea of free will and virtuous character values to accept that our brains are organs that can have broken parts.
When you happen to cross paths with someone like that you will know. A kid I know is like this. He would hurt his younger brother to get attention and use other manipulation tactics (at 8 years old!). He will lie straight to your face and it’s just obvious he is very different from other children.
His mother had to stop working and basically 24/7 supervise this kid and the overall situation is nightmarish.
Because the world is so much easier to comprehend when you convince yourself some people are just naturally bad and thus undeserving of compassion. To some this is preferable to thinking that an impressionable child may be pushed to violence by their environment.
Never mind that the child was likely mimicking his father (who had attempted to murder his mother on several occasions) and was raised in the kind of environment where a loaded weapon was just left around for him to grab.
I mean, no offence, but you can use that line of reasoning to explain away literally anything.
“Because the world is so much easier to comprehend when you convince yourself all people are just naturally good, and thus can always be saved.”
I was born and raised with a psycho, I really wished for the longest time that my sibling was normal and just acting out. I guess having first-hand experience with a sick person will erase someone’s doubts real quick.
I’m not explaining away anything, nor denying that dangerously violent or even psychotic children exist. I was specifically railing against the idea of condemning a real, life human child because you have decided that they were “born bad”, in face of the plentiful evidence that they were raised in a violent environment.
For what it’s worth I’m sorry you had to go through that, but you’re not the only one who grew up with someone unstable and violent. I would not presume to speak to your experience, but in my case I was all too privy to the neglect and abuse they were put through and it’s left me convinced that barring any actual inborn neurological damage the only way a child turns violent is if something is pushing them to act that way.
I was not making a statement on the specific child in the article, I also mentioned that the environment is often the most important factor. I am just raising the fact that in some cases it can be a mental disorder, and it is not about deciding who is born bad, but assessing correctly every situation so you can do the greatest good, and protect yourself. I think we agree mostly, maybe my original comment could sound reductionist to some ears, but I tried my best to convey that I was pointing out a rare scenario, specifically to counter the arguments that you can’t have this sort of mental disorder at the time of birth. It is important to point out, otherwise innocent parents will get harmed (not those in the article, obviously)
This boy choked someone and shot someone else before turning 7. Maybe a psychiatric hospital should be his home.
Fucking seriously… This kid has future murderer written all over him… I get that your brain isn’t fully developed yet, but I don’t think kids like him go from “literally a psychopath” to “normal adult”
A normal kid might do something crazy in a fit of rage or emotion, but then regret what they did when they see the fallout from it. This little psycho boasted about it…
A normal kid doesn’t see their father try to murder their mother . . .
Psychiatric hospital? With what money?? The state doesn’t pay for mental health services. Only metal health services.
Yo, how strong does a kindergartner need to be to be able to choke out a fully grown adult? Wild.
How deranged does a kid need to be for the system to keep a very close eye on them? Seriously that kid is probably a psychopath who’s gonna kill more people if nobody prevents him from doing so
That or he’s badly abused/neglected, and is in need of very serious therapy.
My wife’s hometown of like 300 people had a school shooter, and the kid was one of the worst abuse cases I’d ever heard. Tortured, made to live in a closet and eat dog food, shit like that. Ended up shooting the principal while wrestling for the gun (his only victim) and the principal was like the only guy in town who brought the kid food and clothes and stuff (which his parents then “punished” him for receiving). Just an awful situation.
In some ways, this kid acting out so early may save his and others lives, fucked up as it is.
It says she’s retired so she’s probably up there in age. That and probably trying not to hurt him
My 5 year old is very big compared to my 5’1" 105 lbs. Honestly I could totally see a kid his size if they were deranged being able to do some serious damage to someone my size.
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This is why some US Americans want armed teachers ?
To shoot back at 6 year olds ?
They say it’s so teachers can protect themselves and their students (from the consequences of failed gun laws) but really, it’s just because they have to say something – and it can’t be the truth.
At a civilian level, most of them simply don’t care. They’re confident it will never be their kids and they consider a stranger’s children less important than their own easy access to firearms.
But they can’t say that, so they make flowery comments about freedom, defending their family and how they’re the ones keeping America out of the hands of tyrants, even though they staunchly support tyrants and wouldn’t even wear a mask to protect other people, let alone fight and die for them.
On the corporate and political level, there’s good money and easy votes in guns. It’s no different to tobacco, asbestos and everything else they fought to profit from even as it killed people.
But they can’t say that either. So instead, they coordinate what today’s scapegoat is going to be. Computer games? Too many doors? Timid police? Whatever keeps the money flowing.
The important part for all of them is demanding other solutions are tried before gun control. They know they won’t work, but it will buy them more time and the more time they waste, the better.
That’s why their current solution is “free, universal healthcare for everybody in America, including 5 year olds and people who don’t want treatment, done to a standard far beyond even the most cutting edge of medicine, completely and permanently curing people in less time than it takes to buy a gun”.
Which they then block anyway, because it’s important their conditions for supporting gun control are never met.
@LarryTheMatador @PoliticalAgitator
Yup. I followed them because of this.
Not just teachers: this obviously wouldn’t have happened, if all the other students had been armed, too.
The only thing that can stop a bad 6-year-old with a gun is a good 6-year-old with a gun.
Yes but they seem to be forgetting the very obvious thing that will happen (and has already happened) when you have more guns being brought into schools, even by those you (misguidedly) trust.
For some reason they don’t seem to be able to get that not having guns in or anywhere near a school is the best way not to have shootings at schools.
That article highlights just one obvious problem. Here are others:
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We can’t even rely on our cops to shoot only the people who need to be shot. Now we’re going to trust that teachers will be able to perform better under those stresses - which may include the need to shoot one of their own students - than cops do? How on earth does that track?
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Legal gun owners go on shooting sprees too. Really easy for you when you are already whitelisted to be showing up to school armed.
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A variation on the article I linked: Careless teacher with a gun leaves it in the bathroom and kid finds it and shoots themselves and/or others with it instead of turning it in.
Legal gun owners go on shooting sprees too.
And teachers have to deal with an incredibly stressful situation all day which ever-restrictive Republican education laws in many states make even more stressful. Put guns in the mix and one of them will go postal one day.
But the solution could be as simple as the gun is locked and retrievable by the teacher either by biometrics or code. It could also trigger a school wide alarm if the firearm is released so it would give other classes a chance to lock down. The option is there if the teacher needs it they don’t need to be having the gun on themselves.
Sure, if none of the teachers ever break the rules or are careless with that system in any way, it will prevent everything except the part where we expect teachers to be better than cops at target identification and using a firearm under stress, and also expect them to be willing to shoot a student they know personally.
We’re also expecting them to accept all the trauma that comes with that, while getting paid shit, and having chosen a career in education.
That’s why I said the option would be there if they chose it. They wouldn’t be required to but it would be nice that they had the option to fight for their life.
Better gun control would mean there would be a much lower chance they would ever be in a situation where they need to fight for their life.
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They want armed teachers because the alternative is gun control. They don’t want gun control, so apparently throwing fire on a burning house is now the way to put out fires.
Bringing whole new level to “Kindergarten Cop” I don’t think Arny could have predicted this
Maybe because of the tumor?
Eets naht ah toomaaah!
No, no, no, you’ve gotten it all wrong. We need armed teachers to shoot dangerous books.
There’s no way we can ban all of the dangerous books, so we need teachers to shoot them out of the hands of our precious youth.
We need to arm all the teachers. And all the students. And all the guns. And all the bullets: they can carry little baby guns with more guns in them.
Only after every atom in the universe is a gun will we ever be safe from guns.
So two observations, first how is leaving a loaded gun in reach of a 6 year old not more than a misdemeanor? I don’t even let my kid near a slingshot or pelet gun unsupervised much less anything lethal.
Second, “choking her to the point she could not breath”? How big is this kid that this is even possible? That’s no small feat for a full grown adult if you’re talking bare handed much less a young child.
That the kid at that age even thought that was a thing to do says all too much about the influences on them. We need another Mr. Rogers here…
Second, “choking her to the point she could not breath”? How big is this kid that this is even possible? That’s no small feat for a full grown adult if you’re talking bare handed much less a young child.
I assume it was an old lady because the article mentions it was a retired teacher. Considering the kid has only been alive 6 years, it probably happened the year prior, so if the teacher was able to retire that soon after, they probably were in their 90s or early hundos
That’s possible, to that end the pre-school my youngest attended had a rule of two teachers per class so at any given time one could lead the class and the other watch for troubles since young kids can be volatile at times if they want something right now. Not good if the kid is that misguided to the point of outright violence, but at the same time kids will climb the cubbords sometimes and you need to be able to take them off or catch them if they fall. If the teacher is not physically capable of that then they need an assistant in the room.
That’s exactly the rhetoric that makes it so hard for men to talk about domestic violence.
Confused…? Which part?
I think he’s objecting to “why couldn’t you stop someone smaller and weaker from abusing you?”.
Maybe, but there’s stopping an adult with an actual intent to harm you versus just picking up someone you could probabbly carry under one arm. At some point if you can’t do that well, please don’t get a large dog or such for a pet I guess?
Additionally, the thought was more ‘how can a kid that small even muster the strength to strangle someone to begin with’.
The point is that it’s not about “strength”. And no matter your intend, as long as you picture such events as “whoever is physically stronger wins”, you are destructive.
Why do you think it’s hard for a man to fight back a female partner?
Why do you think it’s hard for a teacher to fight back one of their pupils?
How easy is it for those people to talk about this trauma, if people like you go: “I don’t understand how you can be threatend by someone you can pick up under your arm lmao.”?
So I’m not inclined to get drug off on some distraction with an easily offended sort over the morally correct phrasing or how one should think, but I’ll put it as this.
1: Abuse comes in many forms, not just physical, focusing the notion of keeping it secret and being difficult to talk about on the one most outwardly visible face of it detracts from the larger battles happening in the emotive and mental abuse space.
2: There is a material difference in physical assault perpetuated by an adult or mature child which has a level of malice and intent behind it and that done by a child which, although I’m speculating since it’s not listed, would have been doing this bare handed and without a properly formed mindset to fully comprehend their own actions. A small child at that age likely weighs somewhere under 60 pounds and has hands of relevant size. At some point a person simply needs to be able to fend for themselves or be considered incapable of dealing with a situation, be that in physically resisting or in correcting the behavior of the kid to begin with.
A teacher shouldn’t have to plan for a kid bringing a gun to class, that’s fully on the parents being negligent, but if you work with kids, particularly young ones that haven’t properly learned control of their emotions yet, it should be expected that you’re going to get kicked in the shins here and again and be capable and prepared to deal with that.
Kids psychologically profile the same as a psychopath. This is because kids usually haven’t developed their sense of empathy yet.
I wonder if unfettered access to violent media, without parental guidance or context, coupled with a culture of narcissistic whinging about how important guns are for life, with zero structure at home led to this happening.
I would put the access to weapons first of all.
Or lack of conveniently available and accessible abortion clinics.
And possibly FAS or some similar issue .
What in the hell?
Murica
FrEeDoM
Y’all are acting outraged while this boy could’ve stopped the Sandy Hook-shooting. It’s only due to unlucky circumstances that he happened to shoot his teacher instead. Wrong place, wrong time. Poor boy.
Upvote because this response seems about as reasonable as the “put him down” responses.
Can I request a timeline reset please?
I scrolled past this but saw the headline and then BBC and it caught my attention. I scrolled back because this is some strange shit for the UK. I then started reading and saw it say the US and stopped reading. Nothing more to read here.
Well thanks for sharing. Glad to know how you scroll.
See yall next school shooting
Do I have time to eat before?
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It’s probably a case of her thinking she can not defend herself out of fear of backlash. Teachers have been charged with assault when defending themselves from students.
I don’t promote violence but someone is attacking you, you have defend yourself. If that leads to charges so be it.
losing your career and being sued into oblivion by the kids parents sounds like a real good choice!
Well then get chocked by a child like a fucking amature.
Yeah I don’t get this she couldn’t do anything because she would get sued is such a reddit argument its a small child you don’t have to punch the kid just push them away and hold your arms out don’t sit there like a dumb ass and let a 4 year old strangle you to death
Great “article” BBC. Let’s vilify the 6 year old who is too young to be any more fucked up than his home environment has directly caused him to be or to otherwise grasp the finality of these actions, with only a brief mention of the mother, and no discussion at all about the easy access to guns which lies at the root of every such story.
